Old Mutual On The Money
Old Mutual On The Money
Karabo Ntshweng on being a child star and the financial implications of marriage
Getting married takes a LOT of planning… not just finding the perfect venue and dress, but financial and legal planning too. Our Head of Financial Education, John Manyike, chatted with recently married TV star Karabo Ntshweng about the importance of couples discussing a marriage contract's financial and legal implications before tying the knot. For better or worse, don't miss this insightful discussion.
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Old Mutual 00:00
Welcome to the On The Money Podcast with John Manyike.
John Manyike 00:04
Hello Karabo.
Karabo Ntshweng 00:06
Hello.
John Manyike 00:07
How you doing?
Karabo Ntshweng 00:07
I am so good. Thank you for having me.
John Manyike 00:08
You know, I'm sitting here and I'm looking, I’m thinking YO-TV.
Karabo Ntshweng 00:12
[Laughs] You and the entire country.
John Manyike 00:14
You know?
Karabo Ntshweng 00:15
It's so crazy. So many years later. I'm from Atteridgeville in Pretoria, that's where I was born, and then grew up a little bit in Soshanguve, so definitely from Pretoria.
John Manyike 00:25
Okay.
Karabo Ntshweng 00:25
My mom moved to Johannesburg in the early 90s. So, then that's where I think most of my upbringing has happened. But, yes, the Pretoria girl raised in Johannesburg by a single mom.
John Manyike 00:35
But then something unique happened with you. I mean, you started working, 10 years?
Karabo Ntshweng 00:42
Yeah. And you know what's so crazy, I always tell people that I stopped counting from about 10-11. Because if I start counting earlier, it’s too many years. Like, you're not going to believe me that at 32 years old, I've been working for so many years. Because actually what happened was I was doing ads, TV ads and stuff like that already from the time I was about two, three years old. And then YO-TV happened when I was 10, going on to 11. So, I would say my career is 20 years old. But to be quite honest, it's happened since I was a toddler. My mom would enter me in baby competitions, baby smiling competitions. And I win clothes, I’d win money and then she had a friend who was like…
John Manyike 01:16
For smiling?
Karabo Ntshweng 01:16
Just for smiling.
John Manyike 01:18
I'm smiling all my life. Nobody has paid me.
Karabo Ntshweng 01:19
I was working for my varsity money from literally since I started walking.
John Manyike 01:24
So, you became a child star on SABC while on YO-TV. How did that breakthrough come about?
Karabo Ntshweng 01:31
It was so, I mean, it's not even something crazy like they found me at a mall or anything like that. Because I'd remembered that I've done TV ads and stuff like that as a kid. I wanted to get back on TV so my mom found me an agent. One of my first auditions was YO-TV, thousands of kids were auditioning, and I got the job. And that's been my career ever since 20 years running now.
John Manyike 01:51
You start working at the age of 10.
Karabo Ntshweng 01:53
Yeah.
John Manyike 01:54
You start getting paid?
Karabo Ntshweng 01:55
Yeah.
John Manyike 01:55
You have a bank account?
Karabo Ntshweng 01:56
Yes.
John Manyike 01:57
How did you manage money? Obviously, that time I'm sure your parents might have, must have played a part.
Karabo Ntshweng 02:02
Yeah. I didn't see that money for a very long time. Because I mean, if you think about it, as well, I'm raised by a single mom, she's got two other kids. I've got a twin brother and an older sister. And I'm starting to make money. So, if anything, it's not like this money was tucked away for me for a college fund or anything like that. If anything, I was like the second income in the home. So, for the longest time, I was actually helping my mom out. She was managing my money yes. Making sure I've got everything I need, school and whatnot, but it was the secondary income in the house. I think only when I was about 15-16 was when she was like, “Okay, you're old enough now to handle your own money.” But even still, it was very controlled. I was still helping out at home. You know what it's like growing up in a middle class black South African family, you always have to contribute towards the household. And I think for the longest time, my money did exactly that. It's not like, I finished YO-TV and I had thousands and thousands and hundreds of Rands. No, I wish maybe if I’d be in Disney Star in America, but absolutely not. A lot of us didn't finish YO-TV, and we're millionaires. We work in South African television and there is no millions there. There was no millions then and there is no millions now, no absolutely not. And what's crazy is kids TV was so big, and we had so many viewers. But the amount of money we were earning didn't translate to the amount of viewers and I think that's what's so sad about our industry that you could seem like you're making bank, but you're actually not. So, in as much as like, it was so exciting to be these kids that are on TV and then earning money. Yes, for a child, the money I was earning was great. But when I look back now, and I'm like, I should be living off that money right now. I should be retiring. Like Miley Cyrus in the US. Or, like, That's So Raven, who were on the same level, but like American and global standard, they never need to work ever again. Here I am still working.
John Manyike 03:49
Do you know 20 years ago, I mean, when you started doing it, you know, what was your first paycheck?
Karabo Ntshweng 03:55
I don't know, I don't remember my first check. But I can imagine my rate was probably around R300 and something per show, it really wasn't that much. So, I don't remember how much I was actually earning. But I think sometimes we walk away R5000, R6000 or even more, but and that's what I'm saying. It's not like we were making 30-40- R50,000 at the end of the month then. But as the years go on, obviously, you start making more money, you start doing more shows, your rate goes up a little bit, but I'm going to tell you the truth, our rates were not that high.
John Manyike 04:23
Have the rates changed now?
Karabo Ntshweng 04:25
Look, I can't speak for people who are, who've got a television gig at the moment. I don't have a TV gig at the moment. I can't speak for other people. But we've always just had that. It's just situation in our industry where the rates are not high enough. Maybe some people are lucky enough to have really extreme high rates. I think it has gotten better in a lot of spaces. I think as you grow older as well, and you're able to negotiate higher rates but don't forget a lot of people also come into the industry very fresh, very new. They’re willing to take whatever. A lot of the times the money you're making from television is not enough to keep you afloat, you need so many other streams of income. And that's why when people complain, look this one does TV, radio, voice, what-what, acting. And it's like, you kind of have to do all of that to be able to survive in the South African entertainment industry. We don't have the kind of industry where you are privileged enough to do one thing until later on in your life. Like, I'm privileged at the moment to have cut down a lot of other work, because I'm fine with doing radio, and I do a lot of other extra work. Yes, but it takes a very long time to get to that point where you like, I only want to focus on this one thing. A lot of the times people are raising a family, people are taking care of other extended family, there's black tax in the mix. There's no way you're making it just off one gig.
John Manyike 05:38
I was under the impression that people who are in the public eye doing multiple gigs. They're killing it.
Karabo Ntshweng 05:46
They are, but they have to be doing multiple gigs to kill it. It's also a survival thing. I don't think everybody wants to be working 10 million jobs. Nobody wants to work that hard. Well, I mean, it's important to work hard. But we live very hectic lives. I think everybody wants to enjoy their life and relax and get to spend time with friends and family and actually enjoy their lives. I think a lot of the times now, we'll focus so much on our well-being and our mental health. I don't think somebody wants to be working to the bone seven days a week, you know what I mean? For the longest time I work seven days a week, I think it's more of a survival thing than wanting to do it. I think if you had to speak to a lot of entertainers, if they could choose, they probably only choose two or three things. In the beginning of your career, yes, you want to do everything. But there's no way you want to do so many things, you're probably not even good at all those things that you want to do.
John Manyike 06:31
Yeah. Karabo, so if you were not in broadcast, what would you be doing?
Karabo Ntshweng 06:36
Yoh, I don't know. Because it's something that I've done all my life. It's such a difficult one. But I think I definitely would have probably gone into corporate, maybe being an entertainment lawyer. That is something after Matric, I really wanted to pursue, very passionate about education and studying. So, I did my undergrad, I did my BA at WITS, I did my Honors in brand strategic communications, I'm about to do my Masters in Digital Business. So, definitely some corporate ambitions over there. And that's probably what I would have gotten into. But there's something about really being passionate about the work that you do that it's so hard to step out of it and do something else. So ,even with me collecting all these degrees, I'm still like broadcasting, broadcasting, doesn't want to let go me. I think I was born with it. And it's my calling and hence even now, even if I keep on studying and that kind of stuff. I mean, I've worked nine to five while broadcasting. So, I've worked a nine to five while I was doing radio, but making sure that that nine to five was in radio. And that's another example of the work that we have to put in to be able to stay afloat. I literally had to work a nine to five at a radio company while doing shows on weekends so I can live a normal life and survive as an early-20 something year old.
John Manyike 07:44
Yeah. So, in the mix, there was a marriage proposal on your 30th birthday.
Karabo Ntshweng 07:51
Yes.
John Manyike 07:52
How long were you in a relationship before the marriage proposal?
Karabo Ntshweng 07:55
It was 12 years. So, we got married when we were together 12 years. So, we got engaged in our 11th year, 12th year we got married. And now we've been together for 13 years. So we started dating since first year of varsity.
John Manyike 08:06
Goodness.
Karabo Ntshweng 08:06
People are out there getting degrees. I was getting my degree and a husband.
John Manyike 08:10
I think it's quite humbling though. I mean, to be in a relationship with someone for that long and eventually get married. Because people, three months is a long time.
Karabo Ntshweng 08:22
Listen, I think also you have to consider age with this kind of stuff. I mean, I think I understand being 25 and you start dating somebody and then getting married a few years after that. But when you start dating someone when you're 19, you are no way close to being ready for marriage. Getting married for before 30 was never a plan for me as well, for him as well. We had to work, we had to save money, we had to get our lives together. And only when we felt like our lives are together, and especially financially and emotionally, then it was like, okay, we can do this because you're building a career. I think for him, he wanted to also be a husband that can provide for his family, take care of his family, that kind of stuff. I think also you know, as growing up in the South African landscape, we have black tax, for example, you still taking care of home, you still building a house at home and that kind of stuff. How are you going to pay lobola, have a wedding, buy a house, that kind of stuff when you still busy with back home. So I think for many years, we were just trying to build out careers and when we felt financially stable enough, and emotionally ready and grown, we decided to get married. And I'm so glad we waited because we're not sitting here married and we don't have a place to live or we don't know what we do with our finances. We still struggling so much with our careers. We're in such a comfortable place in our lives. And so I feel like that 12 year wait was worth it because it probably would have been very stressful if I got married at 25. I probably wouldn't have even afforded the wedding of my dreams. I was able to get that. We were able to move into a beautiful home that we bought before we even go married, I remember asking the lawyers and resigning for a house and I was like, it's what I'm doing crazy. Like, do people buy houses with the boyfriends? And she's like, “Girl, this is a contract, you can get out of, marriage on the other hand, that one is a lot more tricky.”I was like, “Okay”. And she was also explaining to me that a lot more couples are getting into those kinds of arrangements, not necessarily rushing to get married, buying property together, investing that kind of stuff together, making sure obviously, the legalities and that kind of stuff are in place, and you know what you're doing legally. And that you're not putting yourself in a situation or you cohabiting and you don't really want to get married yet. The law can protect you in those kinds of situations. There are contracts you can sign, you know, and so for me, that's why I didn't mind buying a house with somebody who was my then boyfriend. We then get married. And by the time we got married, we had a home.
John Manyike 10:40
Yeah. Apart from the decision to buy a house and when going on into a joint bond, did you discuss how the money issues going to work after you got married?
Karabo Ntshweng 10:51
Yeah, it was always a conversation. And I think because we also stayed together before we got married. And that's what I'm saying things are so differently, culturally, at the moment. I think our parents look at us and they're like, “What are you young people doing?”We definitely doing things our own way. And I think it makes it such an exciting time, there's no pressure for children, there is no pressure to even get into the traditional buying a home thing. Some people are leaving it till much later in their lives, you know what I mean? Or, like we went and got a property together as boyfriend and girlfriend, we're living together before you get married. So. we did that for a long time. And so already, we were managing our finances in a certain way that by the time we got married, it was so easy to get into that phase, and that change into our relationship, because we'd already been managing money together for a long time. He knows my money habits, keep us how much I earn, he didn't get us the shock of his life after marrying me. I didn't get the shock of my life after marrying him. We've always been very transparent about our finances, our financial goals, and all of that. And I think being together for so long, and building our lives, financially, emotionally, whatever it is, career wise, as well has helped so much with managing our finances right now. We know our future plans. Yes, they're constantly changing. The economy constantly changes. I mean, things come up, right. We living in a time now where we have load shedding, you might have been saving for something else. And all of a sudden, that whatever R100k you are saving, all of a sudden you need to get an inverter and solar. But that was meant for something else. You know what I mean, so things are constantly changing, and plans constantly change. And I think it's important for us to keep like going with those changes and trying to stay afloat in this very difficult economy. It's not all glitter and gold like Instagram says it is, or like the bright and shiny lights of entertainment say it is, we're living in the same South Africa here.
John Manyike 12:37
How important is it to be transparent about the money issue in a marriage, some people will hide their pay slip like fidelity thing.
Karabo Ntshweng 12:46
I think it's infidelity to hide your money. That is financial cheating.
John Manyike 12:50
It is financial cheating.
Karabo Ntshweng 12:50
Yeah, it is financial cheating, we have to be transparent. Because how are you going to help me out of a situation if you don't even know that I'm in that situation? How am I going to help you if you get into a wrong business deal that doesn't work out? I cannot help you. So, it's important to be open. I think even before getting married, you know, one of the big things that came up financially was your marriage contract. Yes, you're getting married, you got the ring and all of that so many people don't even know it before the lobola, the first thing you need to see is a lawyer before the uncles even come to your gate. You have to see a lawyer, you need to sign that marriage contract before lobola. Because once no one has paid, you're married and community or property. And so it's so important for us to learn about these things. So we don't really get excited. Oh yes, put on the ring. Oh yes, uncles, we're getting married, and then all of a sudden, you're stuck in this marriage contract, you don't understand or that you didn't want you know,
John Manyike 13:46
Actually, I'm tempted to double click on the contracting.
Karabo Ntshweng 13:50
It's a real thing. And a lot of people don't know, girls before that uncle is at your gate, make sure you have seen a lawyer, because the lawyers also sit down. Explain things to you nicely about what are these marriage contracts? What do they entail? What works both for you as a couple? And I think that's where transparency starts, as a couple as well, right? When you're about to now get into a marriage. Hopefully that transparency happened way before this point of getting married. But already being able to have that conversation. It doesn't have to be a difficult conversation. The marriage contract thing wasn't a difficult conversation for us at all. I mean, we are two people who invested in property already together [laughs]. We've been living together for so long, what is sitting in front of a lawyer and talking about our marriage contract, it's got to be done. And we need to also know what we're doing before we step into these arrangements. Because how many stories have you heard of things ending so badly? Lobola was paid wasn't finished but, oh my gosh, all of a sudden, this guy's taking my pension, we've seen on grandmothers go through it. We've seen our parents go through it. And I think we can do things a little bit differently. And that is part of like managing your money, right. Being able to, even in such a happy, celebratory situation for you to understand legally, where do I stand? How are things looking and being transparent as a couple? And I think it starts way before marriage starts as a couple as well, when you're just dating.
John Manyike 15:12
Because I think a lot of people are not aware that you know, a prenup is actually an estate planning tool.
Karabo Ntshweng 15:18
Yes.
John Manyike 15:18
And obviously, given your circumstances, your careers, it may be an important conversation to have. I want to go back to your 20 year broadcasting career. What has been your most rewarding personal achievement?
Karabo Ntshweng 15:30
Keeping a career for that long. Starting a career when you saw young anything can go wrong. This industry is so brutal, this industry will break your heart. I think you go through so many changes as a person as well. There have been moments where I didn't want to do this anymore. It's hard just living in South Africa in general. I keep mentioning that, because it's our reality. I think a lot of things are hard. And keeping a career for 20 years as a young person is difficult. It's one thing when you start working at 24-25. And at the end of your career, and you look at 20 years later and you're in your 40s, 50s, that's different to somebody who started working at 10-11 years old. I had to go through puberty while working. I was in high school while working, then there was that change into matric, then there was that change into my early 20s, then my late 20s, now into my 30s, getting married, maybe God willing, should I have children? There's a career happening during that time, too. So, I think having so many personal changes, but still maintaining a great career, great image, being able to take care of myself and have a career that I'm so proud of. I think for me, that's been my proudest achievement, because anything could have gone wrong, anything.
John Manyike 16:42
Yoh, That sounds like a lot of hard work.
Karabo Ntshweng 16:46
Yeah.
John Manyike 16:46
So, can you walk us through some of the, let's call it investment you've made in yourself in terms of your career, your education, your skills, what type of investment have you made in yourself?
Karabo Ntshweng 16:58
I think one of my favorite things about myself is the way I'm able to cultivate and nurture my relationships with people, whether personally or professionally. I think the investments that I've made in terms of my education, I'm so big on education, I think I'm going to study for the rest of my life. Because I think it's important to continue learning, I'm such a curious person. So, I always want to learn. And I also like learning in a structured environment as well. So I like learning informally, yes, through traveling, through reading, through talking to people, but I like learning in a structured environment, I even think academia is probably something I'm gonna get into later on in life. I'm just going to be one of those people who are going to keep on saying, that's also been one of my proudest achievements, and I cannot wait to keep on studying even further. And I think the investment in my well-being mentally, that's been a very important one for me. Because if you are not well, you're pouring from an empty, empty cup everywhere, in your personal relationships, in your work relationships, in your money, you don't know what you're doing, if you are not well. So, I've been so intentional about taking care of my body, taking good care of my mind. So whether it's seeing a therapist, or going on medication, if the therapist or the psychiatrist says it's time for meds this anxiety of yours. Do you know what I'm saying? So, taking care of my mental health, and my physical health has been a very big one for me, because I can't work that hard if I'm not okay.
John Manyike 18:20
That’s true. A lot of young people struggle with prioritizing or striking a balance between passion projects and, you know, securing their livelihood. How do you deal with that?
Karabo Ntshweng 18:32
It's a difficult one. And I mean, I'm always in a conversation with people about this, because it's unfair for me to say to somebody, don't follow your passion if I'm somebody that's been broadcasting all my life, but you followed your passion. Do you know what I mean? But sometimes we have to be realistic about certain things. Remember, earlier on, I was telling you about how I had a nine to five. That's putting security and being a realistic person and my passions together. I have to make a livelihood. I cannot make my livelihood through weekend radio. I had to get a nine to five. I've got skills that I went to university for but what did I do I use those skills in an environment that I still love. So I still the normal nine to five that everybody doesn't want to do, I still was able to push myself to do that hated it. I didn't enjoy going to the office every single day. But I learned so many valuable skills and lessons and let's still make me the broadcast I am today. How can you find what ways to merge realistically making a living and having to survive and your passions? And I don't always think that our passions need to make us money to be quite honest. Let's say you love baking, doesn't always have to be a side hustle. I don't think so. Sometimes I was even pursuing our passions as a business. I think sometimes sucks us dry from our passion, you start hating it, because now you've got 20 baking orders that you need to do. And you used to enjoy just doing this for your family. So, I'm not saying people shouldn't follow their passions, I think it's extremely important. But I think it's very important for us to be realistic.
John Manyike 19:57
Do we work to live or live to work?
Karabo Ntshweng 19:59
Yeah. I want to work to live, I don't want to live to work. I don't want to look back at the end of my life, and all I did was work, I saw my grandmother do it. I'm seeing my mom. Now she's close to retirement age, she's an entrepreneur. She is one of the most amazing woman I know. But seeing them have to work so hard. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with working hard. I want to work damn hard as I do. And I always will. But I don't think I want to look back at the end of my life, and I didn't enjoy it. And all I did was work. You know what I mean? I want to be able to do all those things that bring me joy while I work. And it's striking that balance and finding a way to do it, right. It's a little bit tricky. But I want to look back at the end of my life and say, “I worked to live.”
John Manyike 20:45
Okay. Now, travel is a significant interest for you. How do you budget for your travel experiences?
Karabo Ntshweng 20:53
I wait. I have to wait. Instagram will make you think people are traveling every single month, every single, you know, freaking every couple of months. But afterwards, I have to budget, I have to save up to travel. Do you know what I mean? I think I don't put a lot of pressure on myself, that's what I do. It is something that I love to do. It's something I enjoy doing. But I don't now put pressure on myself to travel all the time, just because people are waiting for me on Instagram for my next trip. Or this passion of mine to travel is itching, and I need to quickly travel. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with spending your money on things that you love. Yes, we have to be good with money and saving investments and all that stuff is great. And we also need to be careful about judging people and what they spend their money on, I'm done doing that. I'm not going to judge you for wanting to drive a fancy car. That's what you love. Maybe I like clothes and that's my guilty pleasure. We all have our things that we love. And isn't that why we're working so hard to feel those passions and feel the things that we love? I don't think there's anything wrong with spoiling yourself every now and again. Because I think some people develop a very crazy relationship with money where it comes from a place of lack, I believe money flows, flows out and it comes back to me. I've got that energy with money. Very good with it. I've been making money since I was 11 years old. I'm not rich, absolute far from it. But I've got such a giving nature with it as well. Sometimes it needs some boundaries, a little too kinds sometimes. It’s very easy on the hand, my family and friends know about what I'm saying is sometimes people operate from a place of lack, because maybe they grew up lacking money so much, maybe you grew up poor. And you never want to go back to that place that I think they struggled to enjoy the money, because they don't want to go back to that place. And I think we shouldn't always operate from a place of lack, we need to enjoy our lives, too.
John Manyike 22:37
If you had the opportunity to host Elon Musk for dinner. What would you discuss with him? What would you say?
Karabo Ntshweng 22:45
Oh, I would discuss ethics. I don't understand billionaires. I think to be a billionaire, there are a lot of unethical things you need to do. I think there are a lot of underpaid employees somewhere in the mix. There's a lot of damage to the environment that's been made to the mix, a lot of people you know, and helping they're in the mix. And that's what I believe about billionaires, even ones that I love, like Rihanna, for example, amazing musician that I love. There are reports somewhere about some of her staff being underpaid and things like that, you know what I mean? Like very unethical ways of doing business. So, I think if I had to host a billionaire like Elon Musk, we would speak about ethics, I think would speak about the amount of money they have can solve so many problems, not only as him being a South African, and we have so many problems, but I think a lot of problems in the world that could be solved by billionaires.
John Manyike 23:32
That's very interesting. I would have thought maybe you would want to know how he made his money. But so noble of you to think of ethics because it's one of the underrated subjects.
Karabo Ntshweng 23:42
Yeah.
John Manyike 23:42
Especially when it comes to the super rich.
Karabo Ntshweng 23:44
Exactly.
John Manyike 23:45
Okay. In conclusion, if you were to give some financial tips to young people who want to get into your industry, what would that be?
Karabo Ntshweng 23:55
I think it would be get help. Get help and get it early. Not everybody in our lives is a financial adviser. There are people who are actually paid to do this. Mom can say, this is what I did. Yes, mom.
John Manyike 24:08
In her time.
Karabo Ntshweng 24:09
That was 34 years ago, when property wasn't as expensive as it is now. So, maybe that's not the best thing that I should be spending my money on right now in my first job. Do you know what I'm saying? There are financial advisers out there. I think that's the very first thing. I would advise somebody that wants to get into the industry or is new in the industry to do, when you get into a corporate job after studying, you sit with HR and there's medical aid and explain your provident fund and your retirement fund, there's so many things they explain to you that already set up for you. Unfortunately, in our industry, you are on your own, you must go find your medical aid, you must go find your own provident fund how to do that. You know what I mean? You must figure out your retirement plan, you need to figure out what happens on rainy days. So, I think finding somebody to help you manage that. This is the little that I'm earning. What can I do with it to help me for the future? What can I do with it to help me even now as a normal working person? Then there's obviously the issue of taxes getting somebody to handle your taxes, I made a joke off air and I was talking about how I've used the same tax guy since I was a child. I have, he has taken care of my taxes since I was 11 years old, I've never had issues with the tax, man. I never will have those kinds of issues. You know what I mean? Maybe because ethics, but also, I understand that like, I didn’t study the stuff, finances are hard for me, you know what I mean? It's hard. But there are people who are professionals in the same way we are professionals in what we do as broadcasters, they are professionals with finance and your friends are not financial advisers, your partners are a financial adviser, your mother's not a financial adviser, at the end of the day, you get the knowledge and the advice that you need and make the decision that is best for you. And like, save money. It also sounds so unrealistic to say it, but Karabo, there is no money to save the state of our economy, that kind of stuff, but it's the truth. There's so many lessons that I need to still learn. I am not perfect. I've made many mistakes, even those financial mistakes, I've made them. But I think when you've made mistakes, it becomes so much easier to be able to explain to somebody else how they can do better. And that's why it's important for us to also speak about our failures so that you can teach the next person how they can do better than you did.
John Manyike 26:19
Wow. Karabo, thank you so much.
Karabo Ntshweng 26:21
It’s an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
John Manyike 26:22
I really thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I can tell you broadcaster, I felt like I was on radio [laughs].
John Manyike 26:28
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