Old Mutual On The Money
Old Mutual On The Money
Ndumi Hadebe on Navigating Black Tax in South Africa
Black Tax: good or bad? According to self-leadership coach and author Ndumi Hadebe, it can be both. Watch her insightful chat with John Manyike as they share tips on navigating Black Tax.
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Old Mutual 00:00
Welcome to the On The Money Podcast with John Manyike.
John Manyike 00:04
Hello, Ndumi. How are you?
Ndumi Hadebe 00:06
I am great, thank you. How are you, John?
John Manyike 00:07
Awesome, awesome. Well, you are one person who has been very, very vocal about this black tax thing. We decided this time around, we just want to understand what is this thing? You know, but before we get there, maybe let's talk a little bit about yourself.
Ndumi Hadebe 00:23
So, my background is marketing. I did that, because that felt like the right thing to do. And you know, you run away from the thing that is your thing, and then eventually have to surrender to your main thing, the reason why you're here. And interestingly, I had been doing it, but kind of like volunteering, this coaching thing. In 2020, I then remembered that, by the way, in 2013, I did a course on NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming.
John Manyike 00:48
Neuro Linguistic Programming. Wow. So, what is that?
Ndumi Hadebe 00:54
It's basically a programme that teaches coaches, various tools, how to understand and process conversation and articulate certain interventions and tools. For the purpose of transformation. But I'd forgotten about it seven years later, when the world was gray, during Covid, then I remembered that, “Hey, I've got this thing. Let me go back to it.” And I was going through a soul searching kind of journey. Yeah. But before I get to that, the reason why I was soul searching, it's because I had abandoned my boundaries. So, I got to the situation where I was like, I'm 40, I've got nothing to show for it. I've worked for 20 years, yet I've got no robust carrier, no healthy investments, or savings or anything like that. When I studied thoroughly, what I realized is that I let boundaries in various areas of my life. And that led me to a journey of self-love and self-acceptance. And go to asserts that actually, coaching is the thing that I'm meant to do. So let me do it. So that's basically my background. And I've worked with various corporates and in the sector of consulting, accounting, and financial services, and University of Johannesburg, etc, you know, but getting to the point of writing the book was not even about, “I want to write about boundaries.” It was just realizing how we keep our worries about these topics of like tax, how we, we want to talk about it, with our friends, over drinks, on social media, but never with our families. So, that led me to believe that we actually are killing the fiber of family structure by not addressing this issue of black tax. Which mean, because basically, it means that we have feelings, you have feelings and thoughts about it. I have feelings and thoughts about it. But why is it that we wouldn't afford our parents or siblings a right of reply. So with that, I kind of tried to ignore it really, to be quite honest. And I went on and on and on, eventually, at the end of the year, I decided, at the end of 2020, that, hey, this might be something that I want to explore and see if it can be something that we advocate, not against, not for, but just unpack. It's just let's unpack what's this about? And how is this affecting us now? How is this affecting society? How is this affecting the cycle of poverty amongst black families? So that led to me being here, talking about black tax and boundaries every other day.
John Manyike 03:28
We refer to this as the sandwich generation. But of course, the colloquial term for that is actually black tax, limitless that they I mean, you were inspired to write a book called handling black tax like a pro. So let's start there, what is black tax?
Ndumi Hadebe 03:43
Maybe let's not obsess so much about the name plain tax that somebody else can call it family tax, family responsibility. Some people…
John Manyike 03:56
Family matter.
Ndumi Hadebe 03:57
Absolutely they can. You can call it family, making a family to friends, family legacy, whatever the term that you are giving it, I think it's okay that you give it whatever feels comfortable for you as an individual, right. It matters how you feel about it. It matters. Watch how you do it. Because how you do blood tests today, how you and I do blood tests today determines whether our kids will be inheriting us as black tax, right. So people want to say all, “Why do you call it a tax?” You make me feel bad.
John Manyike 04:31
We coin this thing, black tax.
Ndumi Hadebe 04:34
Yeah.
John Manyike 04:35
Is it something that's only prevalent amongst black people, or is it prevalent amongst other races?
Ndumi Hadebe 04:40
Well, it is across the board. As I've realized during the research for this book, it is predominantly being paid or being injured by black people, right. So, going back to your question of what it is, like tax in essence is just the responsibility that we inherit, because our parents could not participate in the economy. It's not their fault, it’s not our fault, and somebody’s got to fix it. But if we don't fix it, then it means that my kids inherit as their black tax, right? So, I am finding that all shades are now actually paying black tax to some degree. Because of course, if your counterpart there is white, has inherited an apartment, they're not going to be paying black tax for a while, right? Because they're not going to be burdened with debt. They are going to inherit perhaps something when their parents die. So, structurally, you find that more black people pay black tax, then other races, but it doesn't mean that it's limited to that.
John Manyike 05:19
Okay, but let's define this phenomenon, whether it's black tax, or whatever. But let's define what is it?
Ndumi Hadebe 05:25
It's a responsibility that you inherit from previous generation whereby they don't have the sufficient funds to take care of themselves, they are month to month basic needs, right. And sometimes it's let's not say basic. I know some people who are rolling with full bouquet of DSTV. Is that a basic need? Not really. But of course, we each family has to define what a need is, what a want is. So, it's that inherited responsibility. That way you find like you said, sandwich generation, you must take care of your family, take care of yourself, take care of your kids. And even worse, because we are now living in a time where our kids go to private schools, our kids were the latest trends of clothes. So, it means we're giving our parents the best. We tried to give ourselves the best. The things that our parents couldn't give us, we're giving it to us. That's why people are coughing, they're cycling, doing all the hobbies they could not do when their parents couldn't afford when they were younger, right. So, not only are you parenting your kids, but also parenting yourself nurturing the child that says, “Sure, but I missed out”. So, where is the money going to come from? When this is elite, this is elite and our kids are rolling like trust fund babies, right. So, it's not easy. I'm saying, let's do it differently.
John Manyike 06:43
Some of the conservative estimates are saying, South African households, about 30% of them are multi-generational. So meaning, you know, you have the main parents, so they will look after their parents, they're also taking care of the uncles and their grandmothers and you know, the extended family. This means different things to different people than those who feel that it's their duty, there are those who feel that it shouldn't happen. I mean, I know some young people are very resentful about having to contribute towards a family assisting a family with anything, because they're saying, “No, I'm young, I didn't ask to be born. So why should I be paying this black tax?” But then you also find others who are very passionate about it and say, but it is my duty to help my family. Is black tax is a good thing or a bad thing?
Ndumi Hadebe 07:34
So, it's neither good nor bad. What matters the most is, how do you define it for yourself, using boundaries, using what you've decided is true for you? I was having a question with somebody that are coaching, they are having financial challenges, there is more spent going towards the wife's family, etc. And I said, let's remove the detail, let's remove the content. Let's come back to what are your and your wife's goals financially? What are your financial goals? Because if you want financial freedom, then how you behave today determines whether you get it or not, right. When your children get to university, you give them with an apartment, you know life is gonna look different. You know what I mean? There's these certain kinds of spending, you're not going to do, because you have decided that you want certain lifestyle to happen either for yourself or for your kids, right. So it's neither good nor bad, it becomes bad when you then get into debt to fund black tax request. And secondly, it is also when you do black tax while you are breathing in resentment and anger inside of you, because what then happens is that it means this family structure is based on money, that's not sustainable, right. So one of the stories in the book is based on someone who actually is alive, works somewhere is Gauteng, an executive, and he says to me, “I'm not broke. I am just resentful and angry that for so many years, my parents didn't actually protect me from funding other people's children from just spending all this money he calculated is black tax since 1987 up until last year, 2022, more than 2.5 million.” And the reason why we don't know is because we don't check. Yeah, right. It's always like small amounts. Uncle John, can I have 1000? Can I have 500? And it's adding up, right. So, in 2017, I think he then put his foot down and said, both my parents, our parents are gone. I don't have to be funding the main home anymore. Guess what? The family fell apart. The thing that kept that family together, was these transactions flying back and forth between Johannesburg and Cape Town, then that's bad. So, we've had the benefit, but at the loss of the family structure and nobody's winning, right. And he also is concerned is that maybe only one person out of maybe 15 nieces and nephews that he's funded has come up with something meaningful. So, then that's bad. Because there was no timeline, there was no honesty, there was no transparency, and there was no love in the way that it was happening. Because it's possible that we can hold healthy boundaries with love and compassion.
John Manyike 10:09
Yeah. So, you talk a lot about boundaries in your books. So, I want us to delve into that. What is a boundary?
Ndumi Hadebe 10:17
A boundary is that line that you say it, this is where I start as Ndumi, and I end here. And you can have boundaries for different sectors of your life, financial boundaries, physical boundaries, emotional, mental, spiritual energy, there's a big condition about like, oh, you know, stay away from people that are negative, and so on. That's when you've set a boundary. And sometimes you don't need to communicate the boundary, you just simply vacate. You know what I mean, you just you do the boundary by doing, right. This is having to articulate, but people find that, because no one is teaching us about boundaries from a very young age, we then judge ourselves for having boundaries. But there is something intuitively that says, “Ah.” There is a discomfort, yes. And yet, we just suppress that, eventually, we actually stop hearing the voice that is communicating what feels right to John, and what feels wrong, what feels right to Ndumi, and what feels wrong. It will make it may be different, the certain standards that you can set for your relationship, that will not apply to your friend. And that's okay. But as soon as people differ, often, what they do is that they then judge the unique boundary. And the point is, they should be unique, because they're yours.
John Manyike 11:32
But our boundaries necessary.
Ndumi Hadebe 11:35
Absolutely. Like we were taught to navigate through life by being diluted, or diluted, like, you know what I mean, it’s lack satisfaction.
John Manyike 11:44
It makes that feel.
Ndumi Hadebe 11:49
Exactly. You know, when we lack boundaries, we are the inauthentic versions of ourselves. And we are fearful versions of ourselves and it is impossible to manifest, it is impossible to thrive when you are in that energy of fear.
John Manyike 12:05
That is so powerful. Because from what I'm hearing you I'm starting to internalize it. So even setting a budget is actually a boundary.
Ndumi Hadebe 12:13
Absolutely.
John Manyike 12:14
You are setting a boundary for your money to say this money has limitation. It is what it is. If it's 5000 Rand, that is the boundary. But when I start spending 10,000 Rand when my income is 5000, it means I don't have boundaries.
Ndumi Hadebe 13:15
Absolutely.
John Manyike 12:30
When somebody asked me for money, and I don't have but I give it means I'm making boundary. Am I reading you correctly?
Ndumi Hadebe 12:37
Absolutely. And in fact, the budget is, interestingly, it's a boundary you have with you, because no one actually really comes and points a gun at you, John and say, “I want the 5000 Rand right now, somebody is asking you, please do you have 5000 Rand for me.” And they at that moment when you say yes, well, you don't. So, when you say yes, when you mean no and you say no, when you mean yes. This is you violating your own boundary, the issue of a budget, it's a guideline. But people do not stick to the budget to the budgets because they lack boundaries with yourself. They have not defined the thing that my black text line is this amount. Yes. Some people will say if I say I don't have money, people will say no, but you we know you do. My question is, why do you say you don't have money? That's a lie. First of all, you have money, John, I have money. But that money is allocated for something else within your budget. So, to say you don't have money is false. So, don't say it. Just simply say, I have reached my, my family responsibility budgets, that's it. And eventually people get like, they will not die, that's one. Two, if people do not respect your boundary, and they basically decided that the relationship must fall apart, they will sulk and not speak to you, or they want to punish you for that. That's a sign that person was never was never your person, that their relationship is based on what the person can get out of you. Which means they want your time, your money, your energy, either for free or for next to nothing. And another thing is IP. How many small business people do you know that give away IP for very little in the hope that they will be liked, what then happens? Nothing, they lose, absolutely. So boundaries or like the center point is the starting point of everything.
John Manyike 14:22
Yeah. Is it possible to have peace without boundaries?
Ndumi Hadebe 14:25
Impossible.
John Manyike 14:26
Your response was so instant.
Ndumi Hadebe 14:28
Impossible, I promise.
John Manyike 14:30
Talk to me about it.
Ndumi Hadebe 14:31
Yeah. First of all, like I've mentioned, the having boundaries with yourself, yeah, it's because boundaries, they can help you be a system to help you keep you accountable to the self. Because if we were serious, would be running ourselves as entities, you know, the big organizations that you see in corporate organizations here in sensing Johannesburg, and so on, they've stood the test of time because of systems, that's it. So, in fact, when you have money, you can sell money, you can sell a business with systems. But it's interesting how in our personal capacity, do me as a brand on do me as a person, do me with her partner, and perhaps John, do not run themselves with clear set robust systems that will help them keep this empire growing. So, how do we then have these multiple legacies are the multiple generational legacies that we say we want, without systems? We're not going to have it. So that's the starting point. But when you hold yourself accountable, then you can go back in the mirror and say, you know, this was a bad move. This part was not necessary, I could have done without, how do we do better next time? So, when you have real boundaries with yourself, you have a solid relationship with you. Most people, in fact, we say most of us navigating through life, we have distance relationships with ourselves toxic or dysfunctional relationships with ourselves, right. So when you have healthy boundaries with yourself, you then start having a healthy and loving and solid relationship with you, then it means you can love us better as people around you. So, when you communicate your boundary, it's not war, it's not confrontation, it's not fiery. I've reached that point where I can say to a friend, I noticed that I'll be joining you. But you know, I'm feeling so exhausted. So I'm owning the feeling that I'm exhausted. But I'm happy to be honest. Because I've chosen the friends that are aligned with me, they align with my truth, right. But also, even when they don't you speak your truth, eventually, then you'll have three friends only or one and that's okay. So, most people don't want to communicate to the boundary, because they're scared of losing people.
John Manyike 16:41
So, how do you communicate your boundaries with your family with love?
Ndumi Hadebe 16:46
Oh, my goodness, I was hoping you were gonna ask this question. It's a difficult one. Especially because most of us are people that have been already, perhaps paying black tax for years. Now, suddenly, they are thinking and feeling differently. That makes it even harder. So, for young people set boundaries from the onset, the trick is doing boundaries with love and compassion. Coming back to how do we have difficult conversations, it's that first you define what the newly found boundary is. So, let's say you've decided that you only have available for black Tech's of feminine responsibility 3000 Rand, First, decide that and own it. Because if you don't own it's going to choke on the truth, which means you're charging yourself and you then call this meeting, but not even nothing harsh. You just send a WhatsApp in the group. Mommy, Daddy, my siblings, can we hook up this coming Saturday, there's something I’d like to check to you guys about you call them in the room. And don't make it like three weeks down the line. Because if it's three weeks, you cannot talk yourself out of it, you're gonna see a video somewhere on TikTok that says, “Don't set boundaries, it's a big risk, then you sit everybody down.” But the approach is that you are taking ultimate accountability for the situation you are in right now. So in my case, I only have a mother. So Mommy, I have been looking at my finances. And I've realized that the decisions that I've been making are not serving me or this family. Going forward, outlet to proceed, then you mentioned. I would like to allocate only this will affect you in this way. The reason why that's important is because the tone should not be accusing your family for having received from you, because why you gave them. So you are the one that wanted to look good and feel good. Where there was a PR exercise was from the heart, we can debate that another day. But right now you have to take accountability for having paid all that money for all those years. But now also acknowledge that you here you are at 30 something at 40. Like as soon as in my case, I was just like, oh yeah, I've got nothing to show for it. I want to change that. How do I make it count? So I need to take go back to the people that are beneficiaries of the activities that I was doing, and communicate with them how it will affect them. You're not asking them for permission. You are telling them what you have decided. But you are telling them with compassion and with love. And added to that is not addressed issues of black tax, during a pending black tax request, it doesn’t mean.
John Manyike 19:16
It's like you're deflecting.
Ndumi Hadebe 19:19
Yes, that formula, the timing, already there is a wall, someone is feeling resistance. In fact, this person is only concerned about the timeline of their need, or want and so on. So, do it outside of drama that existing within the family, do it outside of a pending request, because as much as you may not have the money right now to find the request, the request is somewhat valid to them in their head, it is valid.
John Manyike 19:45
So, how would you respond to someone who say, say setting boundaries, when it comes to black tax is in conflict with Ubuntu? Because we raised you up, we all played our part, it's your turn to play your part to help others? Because you are also assist that you didn't get yourself there somebody? How do you respond to that?
Ndumi Hadebe 20:08
My assessment is that not having boundaries is counterintuitive. It is actually against the concept of Ubuntu. Because how noble would it be that you have Ubuntu towards other people, but you don't have Ubuntu towards yourself. So getting into debt because you lack boundaries, has nothing to do with Ubuntu or does not lead you to being a person that has Ubuntu, right. Because what it means essentially, is that in five years’ time, you will have less money for you and your family. So, what is this thing you're Ubuntu when we don't have the legacies that we're trying to build, right. So, my take is that having healthy boundaries is an indirect way of achieving Ubuntu, you are simply saying, I am happy to help. I am happy to help. And I can help in the ways that are healthy. For example, I will not get into debt to help, I will not save because you need this help from me right now. And I want to make sure that I am not my children's black tax. So, it means you may not be loving right now, it might not look like you are practicing Ubuntu right now. But delayed gratification is basically means that you are acting, you are forward thinking, your kids will be grateful and thank you for actually having had boundaries. In fact, they have been interviewing post writing or publishing the book, interviewing people that are not paying black tax that are black. And all of them, there's the common thread is that their parents delayed gratification when they were in their 20s, when they were in their 30s. And today, their kids in their 30s and 40s are not paying black tax, because they're self-sufficient.
John Manyike 21:45
Are there specific methods or techniques to help people find courage and freedom to, you know, have difficult conversations or confront this issue of black tax? I like the illustrations and examples you made on how you actually conduct a conversation with a family. But before you get to that point, you need to deal with yourself? Are there any techniques or methods.
Ndumi Hadebe 22:09
So, in dealing with yourself, I think let's go back to understanding what your personal truth is around your finances, around yourself. And personal truth in brackets basically, is made up of your needs, your wants, your thoughts and feelings. And quite often people actually judge themselves for having needs, just like how there's oxygen, there's water, there's basic, basic needs, but there's things that are going to be relevant to you that will not be relevant to the next person. So, the first and foremost thing to do is to actually identify what your personal truth around finances is. And once you've defined that, then you own it. Because if you don't own it, you will constantly be tripping up on communicating it, then the third step is to communicate to act on it. And acting on it could be removing yourself from certain situations, doing that with love and compassion, or simply communicating your newly found boundaries. Why people are struggling with boundaries is because they think that boundaries will cause conflict, they think that boundaries will actually end the relationship and or will put the relationship at risk because they're scared of being judged and labeled, and so on and so on, right. So, the starting point there is that people need to educate themselves on boundaries, and also educate themselves on how to communicate boundaries. Because if we don't know how to do that, we're gonna come with an accusatory tone and say, “Yeah, you know, you as my little brother, you've charged all my money all these years.” I'm communicating a boundary, but the way that I'm going about it is dysfunctional as opposed. So I realized that in the past five years or 10 years, I overcommitted myself. And here I am, my status quo is that I'm in so much debt, I like so much saving. And I feel that for me and this family to grow financially, I need to do this differently. No one can judge you when you've said that because you've simply stated a thing, your truth and your feelings, and you've taken full accountability. And of course, I must add. Some parents have an element of toxicity in the way that they react to their kids, behaving like adults. You see, John, we may be our parents children, but we're not children. So, there is a difference. So, sometimes we need to educate our parents, going back to the issue of formula or what we need to do. We need to as we pay, we develop in terms of our personal space or self-leadership, whatever the case may be, we need to kind of move with our parents, along with them. And most of the time, what I find is that we assumed that our parents are not available for these conversations. And the majority of parents actually do love their children, they want to see their children thrive. And if you use inclusive language like we, we as a family, chances are the parents will want to be part of that. Because if you say we, it means when you fail, she's failing. When you succeed, she's succeeding.
John Manyike 25:02
I always say to people go and empower your family, let them help them to build rooms, in townships, we call it rooms, not apartments, or maybe spaza shop or something that's appropriate for your community. So, that is an income generating entity of some sort. And in that way, you're able to exit because otherwise distinct one, one bit won't be gone forever. Do you think that will work?
Ndumi Hadebe 25:27
Yes, it does. It does work in some cases. But, John, I have to acknowledge that not all of us are going to be entrepreneurs. Not all of us will have the cognitive ability, or the energy for entrepreneurship their stamina, actually, that's the word that I'm looking for. Because it requires you to really parent yourself differently. No, like you were 18 Having parents and then suddenly, you're an adult, you're a burden to yourself, right. So, it's almost like you have to be your own coach, your own everything. And it can be difficult for certain people. So setting up a business is not always the answer. I always say set up a thing that will be in line with the person that will be responsible for that thing. Because then it becomes easier for that individual, right, to know like how it's I don't know how it is, but it's scientific, or it's God that decided that the thing that you were meant to do will have talents for it, almost naturally. So, it's almost like, we have to have, our people learn to be incongruent with who they are. Yeah. So, it takes us back to the personal truth pay a person must go in and investigate themselves and get to know themselves and say, Look, maybe all I need to do just sell books as opposed to saying that we're going to build rooms just because the rooms are in demand, then a person falls by the wayside because the thing is not in line with who they are.
John Manyike 26:39
Yeah. Anyway, thank you very much for your insights. What a very insightful interview. I trust that people watching or listening will benefit a lot and will start setting boundaries. So, thank you very much, and all the best for your future.
Ndumi Hadebe 26:55
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
John Manyike 26:57
Thank you.
John Manyike 26:57
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