Old Mutual On The Money
Old Mutual On The Money
The Relationship between Mental Health and Finances
How tight can the relationship between mental health and money be? Very… it turns out! Our Head of Financial Education, John Manyike, sat down with Dr. Nomathamsanqa Watala to explore this fascinating topic. Discover how your financial decisions might be impacted by factors such as childhood trauma, narcissistic relationships, and more – plus get some valuable insights on how to overcome these hurdles.
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Old Mutual 00:00
Welcome to the On The Money Podcast with John Manyike.
John Manyike 00:04
Hello, Dr. Watala. How’re you doing?
Dr. Watala 00:06
I’m well, thank you. How are you?
John Manyike 00:08
I'm well. I'm well, thanks. Today, we're going to be dealing with a very interesting subject. It's not often you hear people talking about the relationship between mental health and finances.
Dr. Watala 00:18
Definitely.
John Manyike 00:19
There are a lot of people who have money spending patterns, but don't realize that a lot of those money spending patterns find expression, or maybe originate from some of the deep seated or underlying issues in relation to trauma, or some psychological experience they may have had in their life. But before we get there, let's talk about you as a trauma education specialist.
Dr. Watala 00:42
So, I'm Dr. Nomathamsanqa Watala. And I have a doctorate in economics. So, my doctorate is not in psychology, but in economics. But I do hold a Masters of Science in Psychology, with a specialty, obviously, with childhood trauma, and narcissistic abuse and financial trauma as well. And I also have a diploma in psychotherapy, and also neuropsychology as well. And there's also the coaching aspect, which makes me a trauma informed recovery coach.
John Manyike 01:13
Look, so, you have a benefit of understanding the economics and financial side and the psychological side.
Dr. Watala 01:18
Definitely.
John Manyike 01:20
Is there a relationship between mental health and how we manage finances?
Dr. Watala 01:24
Definitely, there is. And a lot of people actually think there isn't, they think that when we speak about finances, it's isolated from mental health. Now, when we're speaking about trauma, people don't understand what trauma is. They think that it's something extremely exuberant that might have happened to a person, but the smallest thing where as a child, you didn't have much at home, may be you grew up in poverty. That creates trauma. That grows with you. Then you will have a neglect or an abandonment wound, in turn, allowing you to actually have a money wound, which we now call that “You have financial trauma”.
John Manyike 02:03
What is a trauma?
Dr. Watala 02:04
So, a trauma is anything that has happened to a person where they felt defeated, and they couldn't overcome whatever that situation was. So, let's say for example, you're in a car accident, the car rolls, you are out of control. That was out of your control. Now, that goes into your subconscious mind, and creates a belief system that you are a bad driver, for example. Then we can say that you've got trauma, because you will have a fear of driving, because now you believe that if you get onto the road, you're going to get into an accident.
John Manyike 02:35
Yeah. So, how do trauma victims lose money in trying to deal with some of the underlying issues, they're not even conscious about?
Dr. Watala 02:43
Let me explain in terms of the root of it, which will be childhood trauma, right. So, we categorize childhood trauma between the ages of zero all the way to age 21. So, anything that happened there that caused that person to have some form of trauma, we call that childhood trauma, and then from 21, going upwards to the current age, we then call it past trauma, which makes it complex trauma altogether. Now, when you have, like I said earlier on, you grew up in poverty, you believing that there's a scarcity of money, right. When you come in contact with money for the first time, you worry, you are going to become anxious, you've never experienced this, you don't know how to handle money. And that's why there are shows like "I Blew It", because these people they came into money, there was no former either coaching, therapy or counseling for that. Now, they have a belief system, which is the inner child that is broken, that I am not deserving of the money. And because they feel that they are not deserving of the money, they splash it, they splash it, and then that would then lead to into person actually having callous spending issues as an adult.
John Manyike 03:54
I often hear people talking about retail therapy, you know, an excuse to go shopping. What is happening there?
Dr. Watala 04:01
[Laughs] So, normally I call that a trauma response, okay, so there's nothing wrong with-
John Manyike 04:06
So, it's a trauma response?
Dr. Watala 04:06
Yes, it’s a trauma response because you are trying to find control in a situation by spending money through buying an item. So, it gives you some sense of worth and belonging and identity. But what people don't know is when you are operating from a place of trauma, you are unconscious of what you are doing. So, you are going, saying, you know what, I'm stressed out. I need retail therapy, because you do not know how to regulate your emotions and your subconscious, you go into retail therapy, you buy, you split out all your money, you come back and you asking yourself, why did I buy this? Why I didn't need this. So, a person says, “Oh, I won't do it, I'm gonna stick to my budget, then they do it again,” because they're not realizing there’s a core root problem that is actually causing that. So that's why I say, when you say in retail therapy, you are trying to find control by the retail being a crutch instead of actually getting the help so that you can overcome and recover from that wound that allowing you to do that.
John Manyike 05:11
I also hear other people talking about comfort foods.
Dr. Watala 05:14
Yes.
John Manyike 05:15
Is that also a trauma response?
Dr. Watala 05:48
So, now, I get my clients, and then they would go on and say, Doc, listen, I've picked up so much weight, I don't know what happened, you know. And then I always have to start at the beginning, I'm not going to look at your symptoms, we have to get to the root. Because if we look at the symptoms, that means it's a short term solution, but the root, that's where the permanency is. So, you find food as comfort, because one, you are not regulated. We haven't been taught especially as millennials, and also above millennials, the generation above us, we don't know what emotional regulation is. Because also we grew up in households, where boundaries were something that was foreign. And with that being said, you go and find comfort in food, because you don't know how to sit with your emotions because they are uncomfortable. And you think that having the uncomfortable emotions, there's something wrong. So, you're trying to bring a solution to yourself, but the solution is food because you don't know what to do with your emotions.
John Manyike 06:17
So, no wonder why this scooter, this Uber Eats scooter, coming all the time…
Dr. Watala 06:24
Yes.
John Manyike 06:25
I watched some of your clips on TikTok. And you talk about the wounded inner child, what is that?
Dr. Watala 06:31
So, wounded inner child is a personality, right. That is in the subconscious. And that believes that they are not basically worthy of anything. This is due to the unmet needs as a child. Now the wounded inner child is in people over the age of 21, right. Because the wound has been there and it was never treated. When that wound was created, it also created a belief. Now, they feel that I need to people please with John, because John is my friend, therefore it is birthday, I'm gonna splurge out. Even though I do not have the money. They doing that because they want you as their friend to see them. Because they didn't have that when growing up. So, that's just the basic example of a wounded inner child.
John Manyike 07:22
Yes. But then you also find people who have an obsession, or an obsessive compulsive behavior in a particular area. Is that how people are dealing or trying to deal with this inner wounded child?
Dr. Watala 07:34
So, we've got trauma responses on the psychology side, which we call fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, right. Because psychological wounds are not physical. If you have a wound in your arm, you can see it, you can treat it. Psychological wounds, we don't see it. So, they try to find solutions of what they're feeling inside, because they can't point it out. And that's why my content has to do about trauma education, because I realized it was a need within our community within our society, because people do not know so they try to do all these other things, rather than actually sitting down with a professional or even doing some self-regulation techniques by themselves so that they can heal that.
John Manyike 08:15
There's something else you also spoke about, and you use yourself as an example, the three masks that you wear, and I'm sure a lot of people will relate to those masks. Can you just walk us through those?
Dr. Watala 08:26
Okay, so I was raised by a narcissistic mother that was very abusive. So two decades of my life, I've experienced excruciating narcissistic abuse, physical, mental, you name it, right. And through that, when you are in an environment of being raised by a narcissist or even being in a relationship with a narcissist, you're always trying to appease the narcissist, because the narcissist, they're never happy with anything that you do, and you're trying to find comfort because they showed you a little bit of love. So, you are craving for all of that. So, one of the first mask I wore was to be a people pleaser. Which in the mental health space is a fawn trauma response, right. Now, people pleasing is rooted again, because you're not feeling good about yourself, you feel that you're not enough, something's wrong with you because of something that might have happened that said, "you are a bad person" type of thing. So, now, you end up not having boundaries, you scared of saying, “No”, you're scared of showing up as your true authentic self. Because I think you as my friend are going to judge me because something's wrong with me. So, you like a pink jacket, I like a pink jacket.
John Manyike 9:35
So, you want to prove that you're not a bad person so that's why you're trying to please others. And you're spending money, especially money on them, because you want them to have a good perception about yourself.
Dr. Watala 9:45
Yes. So, there are forces of power that people will have unhealed trauma use money is one of them. So, if it's not money, it will be influenced. So, this is what you see the trend on social media, where people are just showing off all the things and thinking sometimes that was not necessary, you know, you could have just kept it to yourself, they find it, they’re trying to find a place where they will be accepted, because some form of trauma that has happened to them has taught them that they will not good enough. So, they tried to show up and show up by doing all these things.
John Manyike 10:15
Yeah. And then you talk about being an overachiever mask.
Dr. Watala 10:19
Yes. So, now, I'll make an example as myself again. Like I said, the doctorate is in economics. But I started in accountancy, and I went into psychology, then I went back into accountancy for economics, because I felt I didn't fit in, I felt I needed to improve, improve, improve, so I needed to excel so that I can be as socially acceptable. But also being a perfectionist, because I'm a mental health content creator. Now you're critiquing everything, editing, editing, editing... No, this is not it. Are you planning an outfit? Now the weather changes. Now, you're like, “Oh no, this is not the outfit, because you want everything to be perfect.” That's a trauma response. And that is one of the masks that shows that you still have a wounded inner child.
John Manyike 11:06
Because I often hear people say, ja, me, I'm a perfectionist. But actually, you're saying for somebody who is trained like yourself, when somebody says that, you know, that there are issues are there.
Dr. Watala 11:16
I mean, I don't go around trying to diagnose anyone, you know, diagnose anyone, but that already gives me that this person has or is dealing with certain thing. And they want things in point. And you will find that these people that are perfectionist are quite, they can be quite annoying to the people around them. Because you're going to be saying it's fine. They saying it's not fine. Remember, they’re seeing these things through a lens of being wounded and you don’t.
John Manyike 11:42
And then the third one you spoke about is there being a peacemaker. So, talk us through that.
Dr. Watala 11:47
So, people who have inner child trauma wounds, or let's call them psychological wounds, they avoid conflict at all costs. They do not want to be the drama, right. And due to that you are trying to keep the peace. If you are saying the jacket that I am wearing, okay, let's say you say it's pink like yours, but then it's black. I'm not going to argue with you. That mask is you never speak up. You never show up for yourself. Because again, it goes back to that first mask because you don't want to be abandoned or rejected by the person by having a voice. Now, this then leads to a person having suppressed emotions, which leads to leads to anger issues, anxiety, and them just feeling out of place because they don't speak.
John Manyike 12:36
Yeah, wow. That's quite hectic. Earlier on you mentioned a narcissist, what is that?
Dr. Watala 12:42
Okay, so narcissists, the easiest way is a manipulative person that's trying to gain control from the next person. Now, also a narcissist doesn't just go for anyone - someone that can gain something from. Narcissists do not want to associate themselves with mediocre because they want to feel, look, feel good in the public eye, not on a personal level, but in a public eye. So, they need someone who doesn't know their worth, mostly people that have childhood trauma, and then those people they can pounce on. Now, when we're talking about narcissism within a parent and child scope. The parent can see I'm a parent. I can see I have a brilliant child here, but I'm jealous of my child. Yes, parents do get jealous of the children. Therefore, try to manipulate trying to make them feel less than and not worthy. Then the child is confused between but this is my mom, or this is my dad. Oh, this is my family member. But sometimes they nice but most of the times they are bad.
John Manyike 13:45
So, for those who are in relationships, or even marriage for that matter. I mean, what are the signs that you're in a relationship or married to somebody who's a narcissist?
Dr. Watala 13:55
So, we have to understand first the stages of narcissism. So, stage one is the love bombing stage. This is the idealization stage, this is when quickly as the relationship started, this person is singing your praises, they want to buy you Heaven and Earth, you know, it's maybe three weeks in the saying, “You're the only person for me.” Do you understand? And then they move from that stage to the devaluing stage, the devaluing stage they are, now they are criticizing you breaking you down. Now you go from, I know this person singing my praises, all of a sudden now they are criticizing me what is actually going on. And then the fourth stage is when the emotional abuse hits it's all time high. This is where they will do absolutely anything for you to feel that you are not worthy. And then the fourth stage is the hovering. This is when the narcissist is now saying no, I'm sorry for everything that I did to you. And therefore I'm going to try better. I know I did wrong, please take me in they want to take you back to that first cycle into love bombing you and repeat the cycle all over again. So, it's first to understand those stages. Now, what signs would you notice that you are dealing with a narcissist when you say it's “A” and then they say “No, it was never A or B” and you sure it was “A” and he say, “No man”. It was “A”, that I saw and they say “No”. So, they're gaslighting, right. So, gaslighting is basically them saying your reality is not true. You question yourself a lot, did this happen, or didn't this thing happen. The second sign to look out for, they remove you from your community. This is your family, your friends, they want to keep you inside the house and you're not allowed to go or do anything. Then the third sign to look out for they want to control how you dress, what you eat, what you do, even your career choices, the other side to look out for you are never good enough for them. You're never good enough. Whatever you do, it's never, and you’re never good enough. So now you the person that is a victim. You're trying to prove, “No, but I really do love you. And I really care about you”. And the narcissist that says no. And then the other one them telling you things like no one will ever love you the way I do. No one will ever be there for you the way I am. Those are definitely early signs that you can look out for.
John Manyike 16:22
But financially speaking, I mean, what are the signs? How do they manipulate their partner or their victims financially?
Dr. Watala 16:30
Okay, so there's two coins to that. The first one is they will come in with the money. So, how they get you into their web of manipulation is through money. So, they splurge, they splurge, they splurge on you, then they stop. Now you like, why did they stop? So, you're craving for that because they use money as power so that they can keep you and now the reason why they do that is so that they can have control over you, you are going to need them. So, they would say things meat, some of them would say that you can't be working. You making me look for example for men would be, it's just like you making me look like, “I can't take care of you as my woman” and then for women, it will they will say that imagine I'm a woman and I'm busy taking care of you. So, somehow, some way, you feel indebted to this person to behave in a certain way. So, that is the first coin and then the other flip side of the coin is them keeping the money to themselves. You could be suffering and going through the most and you know that your partner can assist you. But they will put barriers so that you do not reach out. Why they do that is because they enjoy seeing you suffer. Someone asked me “Doc, do the narcissist, does the narcissist know that what they're doing is wrong?” They know it's a plan. They plan it. So, if a narcissist chooses you know group of people, the something they saw in you, they don't just go for anyway.
John Manyike 18:02
Okay. So, how do you come out of that? I mean, you are in a relationship like that. And you can see I'm being drained financially, because this person is just not giving me that room. What do you do?
Dr. Watala 18:15
Okay, the first step is awareness is to you to understand that the relationship that you're in is narcissistic, it is toxic, it is not serving me. The second step is get help from outside it is not easy to leave a narcissistic relationship, right. Because as much as you know that you're being drained. The narcissism has as messed up with your chemical mental chemical balance meant, so if you think that you can just walk away by yourself, it will take a very long time. By the time you walk away, you've lost everything. You don't have any money anymore because they have suck you dry basically. So, it is good to first be aware second is get the assistant. And the third and most important one, do not go back to the narcissist, yes, because they will never change.
John Manyike 19:07
So, I've got a question from one of the viewers. They're saying, apart from counseling, what practical steps can I take to begin the journey of financial healing?
Dr. Watala 19:18
Alright, start taking a record, right, in which what we talk about in accountancy, of your spending habits. I would normally say take 90 days, journaling about your money, how you spend. This is very important that you do not become inconsistent, because if you become inconsistent, then you're not going to be aware. So, recovering from financial trauma, you have to be awake. So, you have to have a journal and look at that. So, that will be the first part. The second part is find out where does the stem from my behavior or money? Where does it stem from look into your childhood, I always say before, you can say you are depressed, go into your childhood and find what happened there that has led this like steps that led you to come to that position. Once you see what happens, maybe you were abandoned, right. And then because you were abandoned, because maybe your family didn't have money, so you didn't receive the so that's financial abandonment, you didn't receive the basic needs that any child would need. Now, you're trying to compensate in adulthood. I remember, at home, they used to only give me Oros in December.
John Manyike 20:31
Okay.
Dr. Watala 20:31
So, when I started making money, I used to buy five liters of Oros. So, I always had Oros in abundance.
John Manyike 20:42
So, five, five liters, it’s 25 liters.
Dr. Watala 20:45
[Laughs] And every time one five liter is finished, I'm buying another one. Because I had like, I never want to feel to taste Oros only ones, right. So, there's certain things that you're going to pick up in your behavior pattern, look into those ones. Once you have them down, then start meditation, meditate, to keep your mind down. Why do you have to keep your mind down and still, it helps you regulate your emotion. So financial trauma is also if, let's say it's the piggyback of anxiety. So, you become anxious, right. Once you are regulated, the anxiety minimizes a bit. So, if you can't go to counseling, and you can't afford therapy or coaching, then those are the steps that you can take.
John Manyike 21:28
Okay, so there's another question here from "Anonymous". And the question is, you're the sole breadwinner in the family. And you try to make sure your family is well taken care of. However, their asks never seem to stop. How do you say no, especially if they ask is deemed to be important from the perspective of the family?
Dr. Watala 21:49
All right, people like that, because I'm also a person that was in that boat, is to first understand you need to honor yourself, you can't be a saver of everyone if you can't save yourself, right. So, they need to show up with their boundaries. And their boundaries must be clear, must be concise but they're gonna feel guilty. Because now this person is like saying, this is important. So, I need but if you setting a budget and say I'm only giving the family R1 000, so that they can also survive on the site, you honor your boundaries. Otherwise, if you don't, then you're going to fall out, you fall into that trap. Also remember that these people that are sole providers, they also do have trauma, therefore they always feel that they have to show up for everyone, you don't have to.
John Manyike 22:37
Yeah, you speak about the trauma bond, you know, people who are in a toxic relation. What is a trauma bond?
Dr. Watala 22:42
Yeah, let's first debunk the misconception. So, trauma bond, a lot of people think that me and Jordan are dating, right. John has his own trauma, and I have and then we bonded and that's how we love each other. No, a trauma bond is formed when there is the abuser in the relationship, who basically disarms the victim. Let's say for example, a narcissistic is a narcissistic person, and therefore, the victim becomes indebted to the abuser, so they can't leave that cycle. They bond, they love on the same person who's harming or hurting them. That is a trauma bond.
John Manyike 23:19
Okay. How do you come out from a trauma bond?
Dr. Watala 23:26
In South Africa, we're dealing a lot with GBV, right. And one of the reasons it is not taken seriously is because the victims also go back to the people that hurt that happen them, right. It's because again, going back to the trauma informed education in South Africa, it's not something that is known. And therefore, if a person doesn't know they can't do better, people do better because they know better. So, when you find yourself going back to the same person over again, even though they harming you, take a moment, pause, go no contact for a while from that person. Ask yourself very deep questions, “Why am I doing this?” Now, people that find themselves in a trauma bond is because they lack identity. They do not know who they are. You have to find yourself to get out of a trauma bond.
John Manyike 24:19
Okay. There's another question: is imposter syndrome a trauma response?
Dr. Watala 24:23
A huge one. So, impostor syndrome, so we've got the four core psychological trauma wounds, one guilt, two abandonment, three trust wounds, the last one will be neglect. So, abandonment and neglect creates imposter syndrome. Remember, when you've got the abandonment route, or the neglect wound, you felt that you were not cared for in a way that you needed, you are not validated, you were not provided for the way that emotionally, right, on an emotional level. So, your parents could have been around or caregivers, but emotionally they were not there. Therefore, you do not know who you are as a person because you are not validated to say, well done. John, you're doing amazing, you understand. So, you doubt your capabilities you doubt whether you can, and then you're busy saying, “I must start this business”, but then you're like, impostor syndrome comes in me, a person who has worked on their trauma, who's working with people in their traumas, I still get impostor syndrome, you know, but then I remind myself that I'm safe. I'm okay. And I'm capable of doing this. So, it is a trauma response, but you can overcome it by affirming yourself that you are capable of doing it.
John Manyike 25:36
Okay. There's another question here. And the person is saying, I've gone into debt counseling to help pay off all the debt I've gathered, from years of people pleasing, and being a breadwinner. But this has now left me on a budget that is not working with a way cost have grown with regard to food and expenses, which then brings in that factor of again, facing your self worth, because you can barely make ends meet. What are the practical steps to deal with a mental attests to find balance, and just contentment.
Dr. Watala 26:12
That is very big, right. And this person, they can't really do it on their own, they really need a trauma, trauma informed specialists like myself, to guide them through. Because when we're sitting down in the sessions, there's a lot of things that we unpacked. So, before I can even answer a question, I need to establish what the foundation is, do you understand? Because it always goes back because they are being triggered by the fact that the cost of living is high, but that trigger is coming from a wound, what wound is that? How was it established, and therefore, I can give practical steps that can help them on a mental level, to be able to help but what I do like about the person is they are aware that they are going backwards and their mental health is, is affected, but they really do need a professional that is trauma informed to help them with that.
John Manyike 27:02
Okay, there's another question: how to deal with a narcissist where you can't completely remove yourself from them. For instance, where you're co-parenting with a narcissist?
Dr. Watala 27:14
Okay. Co-parenting with the narcissist is one of the most difficult task anyone can ever do. Because the narcissist if they can't have control over you, they will use the child to get control over you. So, you have to learn to disarm the narcissist by turning into a gray rock. So, gray rocking is a technique that we use in trauma for trauma emergency for mental trauma emergency on clients, and also patients with psychologist and psychiatrist where you do not react, respond show emotion in any form or shape with the narcissist and narcissists. Remember, they want control, but in order to get control, they need your reaction. So, you have to give them permission. When you become a great rock shows zero emotion, none whatsoever. So, you can't run away from on this one. Like I said, for me, I was raised by a narcissistic mother. I did eventually cut ties with her, like I walked my mom out of my life at age 16 because I was just done. And if I knew what I knew now, I probably would have done it earlier on. And a lot of people will say, “But you were young.” There is no age, that can be glorified enough to say, this is the right age to walk away from a narcissist because they can destroy you. With me with my mom. At that time, she used to get more aggravated with me when I didn't show emotion. Like, she would say, for example, she would beat me until I pass out, “Oh, I believe that's the only time so I learned not to cry anymore. I learned to have nothing but I didn't know there was gray rocking.” Now, with this particular person, whatever the narcissist is triggering one, they must know what are these triggers that are coming from the narcissist? The second part is not to respond not to show emotion, just turn into a gray rock.
John Manyike 29:00
For somebody who is going through a lot of emotions that they don't understand but they feel that “Nah”, because other people will feel that, “No, I don't need I don't need to speak to a counselor, I don't need to speak to a psychologist”. How can they overcome this?
Dr. Watala 29:14
You have to help yourself in order to get the help. You can take the cow to the river to drink the water. But if the cow doesn't, you can't. So, you have to come to yourself and find out how bad enough do you want to heal to recover from this, why I do have a fear of talking and what's going on there? So, the first stage you can start is having a journal to take out basically all the thoughts that I knew hate. So, people that have a fear of talking to other people is a fear of being judged or rejected by them. Or they think that the person is going to think “Oh, this one is wounded.” I've seen cases like that where mental health professionals have, you know, victimized the victim within sessions. So, it's very important that whoever that you would want to work with is in alignment with you. And also remember, as much as you're scared to speak up, you are allowed to fire your mental health professional, because this is about your life. So, start with the journaling. But eventually get into the crust of everything that I really need the help, therefore I need the extra support. Because I do not know how to do this by myself. And also the party that you do not want counseling, or to go to counseling in order that that's another trauma response.
John Manyike 30:38
You also talk about an abandonment wound. So, maybe you are rejected while you're young. So, when you are in relationships, you're finding it difficult to exit a relationship, even if you see that it's a toxic relationship, or you keep spending money in that relationship because you have a fear of, of rejection or being abandoned. Can you talk us on that one briefly.
Dr. Watala 30:59
Okay. Firstly, when a person does that they are learning, they've learned to abandon themselves too, because it's something they became numb. It happened in childhood, it's happening in the relationship as well. So, when you are abandoning yourself that means that you are emotionally unavailable to yourself. Therefore you will not, you're not going to see what you're doing is wrong. As I said earlier on, people that have trauma, have the trauma responses, the freeze the fight or flight and the foreign trauma response as well. So, if you are not emotionally regulated, you are, you're gonna find short term solutions to make this person you know, see me see me see me before I leave, like I'm going to leave, but see me, I'm doing this, I'm being, I'm loving you, I'm caring for you, I'm buying you. And in the meantime, they're also losing money as they are doing that. So that abandonment wound is actually one of the one that is very deep. And that is it's I struggle a lot with my client is the one that they struggle the most. Because also again, it's attached to identity, because they do not know how it looks like how love and emotional availability and not being read up and abandoned or rejected looks like.
John Manyike 32:08
Is this the reason why some people continue to be stuck in a toxic relationship, even if they see that their partner is not emotionally available to them but they keep getting stuck there. Even if it's you know, one of those GBV type of relationship where they're being abused, but they stuck they just cannot come out. What are the issues there?
Dr. Watala 32:28
Can I tell you that that person is trying to make up for the relationship that broke with their parents, with the partner, that's where the issue is at. So, they are trying to make amends because all of us have been born with a need of being cared for we born with it, that it's not something we just crave out of nowhere. It's there, right. So, if it didn't come from their caregivers or their parents, intimate relationships become very similar to the relationships you're going to have with your parents, right. But then now the feelings and emotions are attached and they are the same. So, now that person is actually trying to mend a relationship with their parents, with their, with their being with their partner, even though they are being rejected, because they felt at the time as a child, they didn't have control. Now, they've got things they can do so that this person can stop rejecting.
John Manyike 33:21
Wow, sure. I wish we had more time. I mean, it has been a very insightful interview. I've certainly learned a lot and I'm trust that people watching have learned a lot and even those who are going to be watching in future will learn a lot from this interview. So, thank you very much for joining us.
Dr. Watala 33:36
Thank you so much for having me.
Old Mutual 33:37
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